The Enemy Is Us
One of my passions is reaching emerging generations.
I said something yesterday that I'd never said before. And it wasn't in my notes. But something crystallized for me.
I cited a study that found that 58% of college grads who grew up going to church stop attending church for one reason or another. I've actually seen studies that peg the number as high as 86%.
These are church kids. And we're losing at least six out of ten. That attrition rate is going to kill us. It's like we're losing a generation. It's Judges 2:10: "After that generation died, another generation grew up who did not acknowledge the Lord or remember the mighty things he had done for Israel."
I felt such holy conviction when I was speaking yesterday. I said, "I'm not in the camp that says what's wrong with them. The real question is: what's wrong with us."
If the church was doing it's job--incarnating the gospel in relevant ways--I honestly don't think we'd see so many twenty-somethings leaving the church. They long for community and authenticity and meaning as much as any generation. There is a spiritual hunger. But evidently they aren't finding what they're looking for in the churches they grew up in.
As the infamous Pogo once said, "We have seen the enemy and he is us."
Irrelevance is Irreverence!
I said something yesterday that I'd never said before. And it wasn't in my notes. But something crystallized for me.
I cited a study that found that 58% of college grads who grew up going to church stop attending church for one reason or another. I've actually seen studies that peg the number as high as 86%.
These are church kids. And we're losing at least six out of ten. That attrition rate is going to kill us. It's like we're losing a generation. It's Judges 2:10: "After that generation died, another generation grew up who did not acknowledge the Lord or remember the mighty things he had done for Israel."
I felt such holy conviction when I was speaking yesterday. I said, "I'm not in the camp that says what's wrong with them. The real question is: what's wrong with us."
If the church was doing it's job--incarnating the gospel in relevant ways--I honestly don't think we'd see so many twenty-somethings leaving the church. They long for community and authenticity and meaning as much as any generation. There is a spiritual hunger. But evidently they aren't finding what they're looking for in the churches they grew up in.
As the infamous Pogo once said, "We have seen the enemy and he is us."
Irrelevance is Irreverence!
35 Comments:
Staggering, no? If only there was a way to mesh NCC's relevance and clarity of communication with Chi Alpha's experience reaching college students...
hmm...i agree brian. actually statistics say as high as 9 out of 10 christian students walk away from jesus their first year.
we're falling short. real short.
Pastor Mark, this is one of those that I have always been passionate about in my ministry over the years, from the time I first became a youth pastor.
This is a heart breaking statisic for me, we work so hard at reaching the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings, my passion is keeping the 17, 18, and 19 year olds.
When I was in student ministries and now back in it, it has always been the core of ministry to reach them young and disciple them for life.
It is so important that our students not have a simple believe in God, but they have strong convictions.
My two cents, you touched on a passion of mine.
Later,
Chris Jarrell
I read that passage from Judges recently in my devotions, and it really hit me. Thanks for another great post Mark! I guess I'm in the middle of this too, as I'm a 18 year old Christian who is passionate about God... but I'm not finding it in my current church. In His grace God has shown me other places where it does exist, so I dont get too discouraged I guess. But what about those who dont see them?
Pastor Mark, I just wanted to add to my previous comment. I believe one of the greatest ways to influence the students and college is through the web, especially with huge popularity of MySpace...I am not sure if NCC has ever considered putting up something on MySpace that is directed more towards students and college age. It is just a thought and it is definitly not original, but we need to take advantage of every viable option to reach and keep students as they enter adulthood.
Chris J.
Mark... thanks for a great post on this topic. I was one of those statistics. I grew up in the church my grandfather had founded and which my parents had attended faithfully since before I was born. But once in the campus environment, I left it outright for almost 8 years before God rescued me in dramatic fashion.
I know for a fact why I left, too. The gospel ceased to be rationale once I hit the world. I found that I was completely unable to answer the questions thrown at my faith. Not questions from others... questions from myself. There was no logical connection, and so the faith my church practiced began to simply seem... "zany" ... if you will. I wanted something concrete. I wanted to know Christ was real for myself. But the college offered me something the church was not. The college was treating me like an adult and forcing me to think ... the church was treating me like a child and forcing me to believe. Since I wanted to grow up, I chose the environment that allowed for that.
There is a difference between a high school student and a college student. Both may go to a movie that is high in special effects and hip in musical selections for theme music. But while the teenager may evaluate the film for it's "cool" factor, the college student will actually begin to evaluate it for its "content" factor. That's what I think they are doing with the church. They are evaluating the "content," and finding it lacking and un-challenging.
The church spends so much time worrying about the physiological development of the young adult scared that he/she will have pre-marital sex when what they should be focusing on is the intellectual development of the person who might have "pre-marital intellect." That is ... intellectual development prior to being married to Christ. If we honestly want to start retaining our college students, we need to begin treating them like adults rather than adolescents. The way we will do that is by training them to seek truth as opposed to tradition... and allow them to ask questions. I think your motif of searching for new ways to teach old truths is a right step in that direction.
Mark, thank you for this post. I'm one of the few who has stuck with the church for some reason and now I want others to join me on my journey.
Lane, I love your movie analogy. That sums it up perfectly!
I think that the church can and should be "cool" along with having "content" that is relevant to every generation and culture. It is up to us to communicate truth on a level where it can be reached.
Could you share the citation/ reference for these statistics? I heard different numbers mentioned, and they have a lot of credence and believability to them, but it'd be helpful to know what the source is. Thank you!
DJ,
The 58% was a magazine I read about a year ago :) Isn't that incredibly helpful :)
I read so much that I often forget specific references. I ouhgt to footnote them!
Mark
Mark,
I don't believe it is so much what we are not giving them, but what we are giving them. The church in todays world is all about feeling good, but the word of God teaches us more than feeling good, it also teaches us about the trials and tribulations the world will put us through. No where are we promised that we will feel good in this life time. What we are promised is the life to come. So we are teaching our children to abandon an eternity of feeling great, to few days of seeking pleasure in this short life.
Just a thought,
Matt Ramsdell
Matt,
Good thought. It sparked this thought...
One of my convictions is that people ought to walk out of church feeling better than when they walked in.
They will undoubtedly experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God will touch raw nerve endings. And confronting your sin is painful. But that isn't where we leave people. We give them solutions. We give them hope. We remind them that there is a God who died for them and loves them unconditionally.
So everybody ought to walk out of church feeling better than when they walked in every Sunday.
It's sort of like going to the hospital. You get a bad diagnosis from the doctor and that makes you feel bad. But you immediately get a prescription to help you feel better.
My two cents.
Mark
Awesome points by everyone! But what is the root cuase of turning from the church? Is it really that we aren't "cool enough" or relevant or that Jesus is out-dated? No. Could it be we (the church) has lost it's foundation and compromised truth to suite the needs of the world and science? If our children leave our homes and churches without knowing the foundational truth of God's word and how it stands up to today's science and media, then we all loose. Our universities, legal courts and the media will certianly teach "truth" to our children.
Shane
I'd like to add my two cents' worth to your valuable discussion. There's an excellent book by evangelist/author Ray Comfort that addresses this topic, called How to Bring Your Children to Christ...& Keep Them There: Avoiding the tragedy of false conversion. The book quotes the alarming statistic: "88% of children raised in evangelical homes leave church at the age of 18 never to return." That ought to frighten every Christian parent!
(To answer djchuang, the source for this statistic is: Kyle Williams, "Baptists Missing the Mark," WorldNetDaily, June 12, 2004 www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38924.)
I agree with your conclusion that the problem is with us--and I believe it's because of the gospel message the church is presenting. We're making Christianity a matter of "life enhancement" as Matt said, or simply tradition, as Lane mentioned.
I would heartily recommended that every Christian listen to Ray's free audio message related to this, "Hell's Best Kept Secret" (www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm). In it, he shares the crucial biblical reality of true and false conversion, and explains how to share the biblical gospel in a way that makes sense to people, so they can experience genuine conversion. By helping our children--and the lost around us--finally, fully, clearly understand WHY they need the Savior, they will cling to the Lord for life--no matter what they hear out in the world.
Lynn
Mark you have got to be kidding me. You think that "incarnating the gospel in relevant ways" is what is needed? Most members of churches today would probably not even be able to give a clear and complete gospel message to anyone who asked them and you think it is necessary to find more "relevant" ways?
Jesus did not come and die the way He did so people could live "relevant" lives and be guilt-free - He came that we might be saved from the wrath to come. If you don't show a proud sinner the law rests upon them to reveal their guilt before a just and holy God - then how could they possibly understand the indescribable love Jesus showed in His offering of payment for the sin of those God calls, once and for all?
Lynn, excellent post. I would simply add that the other message at Living Waters entitled "True and False Conversion". Why do people leave church for the world, because they do not serve God and will not submit to Him primarily because they never received either a clear gospel message (like that delivered consistently by a Ray Comfort or a John MacArthur, etc...) or they have not received a call by God (Jesus said "of those whom My Father has given Me, I will lose none" - John 6).
Bill
Bill,
Irrelevance is irreverence.
We've got to be truthful and relevant. It's both/and. Jesus set the example.
A comment doesn't afford the space, but Jesus incaranated the truth into cognitive categories that his speakers could understand. An agrarian illustration is a great example of relevant truth. He made the truth make sense to a bunch of farmers. That is what relevance is all about. It is speaking in a language that people can understand.
I'm certainly not suggesting that irrelevance is the only problem! But it is A problem.
Having said that...I don't think we can be too clear in our gospel presentations. May God anoint us and help us preach the truth in ways that help people find amazing grace.
Mark
Many churches spend a great deal of time, effort, and expense to try to attract people and "make Jesus relevant" to the lost. But if we clearly explain to people what sin is, and that the just punishment for even one sin is eternity in hell, can you think of anything more relevant to them at that point than how to have their sins forgiven?
When we share the gospel biblically, within a couple of minutes, the lost go from thinking they’re good enough for heaven, to recognizing their sin and admitting their guilt before a holy God. Suddenly grace becomes truly amazing. For the first time, the love of God demonstrated on the cross makes sense to them and they see their need for the Savior.
If you want to make Jesus (not the church) "relevant" to the lost, talk to them about what sin is--show them the holy standard of the Law of God. If you want to have the lost actually thank you for talking with them about sin, just learn how to share your faith simply, effectively, biblically...the way Jesus did. Check out www.wayofthemaster.com.
Lynn
Mark,
With all due respect there is nothing irrelevant about much of what you might consider "irrelevance" today. A pastor who preaches a full gospel message would be called out as being irrelevant by many of the "seeker-friendly/emergent" crowd - yet God is faithful and moves through the preaching of His word, irregardless of the hardness of a persons heart. Had you the courage to take the time to investigate a ministry like Ray Comforts Living Waters ministry and the "Way of The Master" you would see the transformation that God works in the hearts of men you might consider have no interest in the Law/Grace message they deliver.
You have to edit the Bible and remove extensive scriptures about a church that strays from the word to be comfortable with what has become of the church today in America. The gospel message is not one that needs to be adjusted to fit the culture - it is one that calls for man to repent, because without repentance there is no remission of sins and most churches have made an art of trying to "get people saved" without using the word "repent" or "sin" or "wrath" or any other word that clearly describes the character of God, nature of what is to come, the events that will come on Judgment Day.
While pastors are running around trying to figure out new ways to be relevant to a culture that despises God, God is calling His people back to Him with His word that cuts just a sharp today as it did 2000 years ago. For one to buy into the idea you present, they must first come to the conclusion that God is unable to soften the hearts of the new generations of people today - what a blasphemy Mark.
It is God who adds to the church daily those who are being saved - problem is we've got men (pastors) running around adding to their church rolls (memberships) daily people who are not saved.
May God grant you repentance and unclouded understanding of what is commanded by Lord Jesus Christ. If you do not bow everything at His feet, how do you call Him Lord? Such is not a Lord but merely an "adviser" or "consultant" - Jesus is Lord - is He yours?
In Christ,
Bill in KC
Can I just say it like it is? The last two comments are examples of what I'm talking about.
The enemy is us.
Why are only 40% of Americans going to church? We can blame the people who aren't coming. Or we can look in the mirror.
I choose to look in the mirror.
We've got to pray more. We've got to work harder. We've got to get more creative.
Let me say it again.
Truth and relevance.
It's both/and not either/or.
By the way, we talk about sin. But we even try to do that in a creative way to help people understand the concept. I did an entire message on the law of entropy--the tendency toward choas and disorder. And likened it to sin.
If you think the church is as good as it can get and we're doing everything we need to do then we're on two different pages.
More creativity. No compromises.
Mark
Amen, Mark!
How is being relevant connected to not preaching truth?
I think the church is doing more repelling than compelling.
Mark, it was Jesus who said in Matt. 7 "for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." You may want to read very closely the following passage which is immediately following that stern warning from Jesus Christ about how we seek to enter into the gate of eternal life. Matt. 7:15, 16a "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."
It's as if your supporters and those within the "seeker/emergent/PD/WCA" sect of "evangelicalism" are innoculated against such warnings of Jesus. Most significant is what He says in the passage following that, in case you missed the first warning, and were sleeping through the second, He goes on to declare what I can only imagine would be the most painful experience a person could go through where Jesus says to those who call to Him "Lord, Lord" - ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
And He closes out His teaching in Matt. 7 by telling them to build on what? On the rock, the rock of His teachings. Those who build on the rock of His teachings, "hear these saying of Mine, and does them," will be what? Will be like the house build on a rock which withstands the storms - whereas those who do not heed his sayings are washed away and "great was its fall."
2 Tim. 2:19,20 reads as follows Mark: Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
All these people "entering in" through repentance-free "gospel messages", services designed to cater to the "felt-needs" of the unchurched, a wholly un-Biblical concept, are being promised a gift that they are in no way the possesser of, and when life deals them harshly they will likely become the object of 2 Peter 2:20: For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
And there will be many a pastor from American churches who are standing before God fighting to explain why they departed from His Word and instead chose to chase after pleasing men, all-the-while saying they are doing the work of God, not altering the message and doing great signs and wonders in Jesus name. I refer you back to Matt. 7:22,23:
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
In Christ,
Bill
Bill,
One more time :)
Truth and Relevance.
Both/And. Not Either/Or.
Truth without relevance is like me preaching in French.
Incarnation is the methodology. We translate the good news into a language people can hear and understand.
Part of me wonders if there is a theological disconnect. We might be in different camps :)
I know Jesus said the gate is narrow. But certainly you don't think that means we shouldn't try to reach absolutely everybody? We're commanded to compel. It means to demand attention. I would prescribe Luke 14. That is the passage that drives us. God wants a full house! And that doesn't mean compromise.
It just seems like you're assuming that creativity and relevance are somehow ungodly when the truth is the exact opposite.
I wonder if you've seen some negative examples of "attempted relevance" that dilute the gospel or turn it into a gimmick?
Trust me, that turns my stomach as much as it does yours! But that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Mark
Mark,
Methods of reaching people are important, but show me where in the Bible it is written that the church should spend it's time creating new ways to purportedly bring people to a "decision" for Christ?
The Great Commission is not a call to bring in the lost into church to be saved, it is a call to GO and make disciples of men, teaching them ALL that Jesus commanded, not simply getting them to come back to a "cool", "relevant", "need satisfying" and "entertaining" church. Churches need to be teaching the members to be faithful ambassadors for Christ fulfilling the minstry of reconciliation they have been given. By the way, Jesus taught about protecting the flock from the wicked, about protecting from a leavening, but to look at a church like say Saddleback, Willow Creek, my former church here in KC Antioch FWC, there is little that would lead one to believe the members have separated themselves from the world, which IS Mark, a call to all Christians, to "come out from among them and be separate".
Don't tell me the narrow gate passage is what drives you, in the name of relevance you have spread the gate so wide it is beyond description. As for the "baby with the bathwater" comment - how lame is that one? That comment has been used by many today to justify their watered-down, emergent, no-theology church styles, but what did Jesus have to say in Luke 9:23? If you do not teach that self-denial is a symptom of salvation, that daily submittal/death to self follows as well by the grace of God in the life of a Believer, then all the creativity and relevance in the world is, in the words of Alistair Begg, a dog's breakfast.
Have you listened to Hell's Best Kept Secret yet Mark? How well does your stomach handle the thought of 94% of 294,000 "decisions" for Christ being out of fellowship with the churches within a years time? See you might want to say it is the churches fault because they aren't "relevant" or "creative" enough when in fact the problems lies in that they made woeful assumptions after a tragically insufficient gospel message. One that, like your beliefs on your church website, does not mention repentance or gives lip service to it. What do you guys have against speaking truthfully to the lost? That they must repent, AND believe the gospel as Jesus said in Mark 1?
I spent better than 2 years believing I was "saved" - never missing services, playing on the worship team, fully funtioning member and by all outward appearances a "good Christian" - but as Paul said it wasn't until I trembled before a just and holy Law of God that I trembled, I did not know sin until I looked at the law of God. God will not give grace to the proud, His word declares it "Law to the proud, grace to the humble" - yet that's not what you will hear on Sunday at churches trying to pack the pews week after week that they might be a change agent in the lives of many.
My final comment Mark is simply this, God saves those whom He will save through the faithful preaching of His word, He never called church leaders to be creative, relevant, or desiring to draw large crowds, that is a man-centered pursuit of influence and fame seeking. Paint it with a humility brush if you like, but the outward signs are clearly seen. Follow 2 Tim 4 Mark and let God be God and those whom He calls will come.
Enough I know, but Mark, don't let your pride prevent you from being truly humble and following Christ in all He commands, for by this one knows who loves God and whom God will manifest Himself to.
In Christ,
Bill
Bill,
I read Hell's Best Kept Secret years ago. I love it.
So can you honestly tell me exactly what Saddleback and Willowcreek are doing wrong from your first-hand experience? Or NCC for that matter? If relevance is wrong then I want to be guilty as charged.
And how can you have a problem with the hundreds of people that are getting saved and baptized at some of these seeker-sensitive churches? Maybe the phrase "friend of sinners" churches would be a better or more biblical label?
I honestly try to look in the mirror when I read comments like the ones you've posted, Bill. But I also try to call a spade a spade. It seems like you're suggesting that others aren't as "saved" as you. And you seem to think that other methodologies aren't valid.
If that is the case, then we'll have to agree to disagree :)
Life to too short for infighting if we're functioning within the latitude Scripture affords. I obviously think we need to confront anything that is heretical or unbiblical. But unless there is a specific accusation that can be backed up with Scripture then we ought to do less pointing of the finger and more folding of our hands in prayer for one another.
I still think the enemy is us :)
Mark
Mark,
You said: "If relevance is wrong then I want to be guilty as charged."
You know what that tells me? That authority does not matter to you, that the decrees in the Bible are secondary issues to you and that there is a god in your life, made of man, not of God. There is no submission Mark, and I am not the judge, but there is a judge who will tell many, who did many wonders in His name, to depart from Him because He NEVER knew them. I read with great pain the passages in Matt 7 where Jesus warned about the two paths, the many, the foundations realizing that for years I was duped (maybe unintentionally, but nonetheless duped) by pastors seeking to be "relevant" and accomodating. Rather than feeding the sheep they end up feeding and entertaining the goats. I've seen many churches that parrot the Warren model, the Willow Creek Association and PD model consumed what was in my naive opinion a solid church. It wasn't until I was on the outside looking in that I understood the shallowness of the teaching at the church. I was not called away in opposition to it at all, I happened to fill in for a friend who led worship at a church where the word was preached and it was like my appetite was insatiable and my understanding exploded. Shortly thereafter I was blessed to hear Ray and Kirk on WOTM and realized my lost condition. Despite years of being told by friends and pastors and well-meaning "Christians" that I was "saved" I knew I wasn't.
How foolish Mark for you to count all those going to a Saddleback, Willow Creek or even your own church "saved" when the Bible is very clear that many will be banished to eternal hell because they never truly knew Jesus, never bowed to His Lordship, never repented of their sins, quite possibly because pastors haven't the courage to tell them consistently about their sins and explain what they are, that lust is adultery, that anger is murder that redefining the nature of God is idolatry.
I'm not in any way putting myself up as more saved than others - you are either saved or not, but self-righteousness Mark, which is exactly what it is when you refuse to humble yourself to God, is not indicative of the redeemed.
You've ignored the repentance-free gospel on your church website - which is a false promise Mark. How difficult is it to change that and make it right? It is indicative of a church that thinks you can win them through service, but not confident that the saints can effectively witness because they have failed to teach them to do so, most likely because they are not strong on knowing exactly what is the gospel.
Why do you promote the Message by Eugene Peterson Mark? It is blasphemous garbage and to present it as scripture or use it for teaching (i.e. ripping it to iPod's) is heretical. It takes Jesus words in Mark 1:15 among others from "Repent, and believe the gospel" to "Change your life and believe the Message." It takes "On earth as it is in Heaven" in the Lord's prayer and switches it to "As above, so below" a new age mantra.
The list goes on and on Mark, what gives? Do you have that little trust in the power of God to break through the generation gaps and hard hearts of todays people or are you simply unable to see the slaughtering that is done by Mr. Peterson to the word of God?
BTW: Warren's PD book primarily used the Message as his source for "scripture" - he quotes from a wide variety of "sciptural" sources therefore what need have I to visit Saddleback to know the church is unhealthy for those seeking after the jealous God of the Bible who will judge the world in righteousness?
Maybe if you spent a little less time worried about "buzz" and more time studying the word, the history of the church (Foxes Book of Martyrs, etc...), the faith of missionaries and Christians in areas where their faith might cost them their life, etc... you might have a faint idea at why I belabor the point. I do not disagree with you about the enemy being you Mark as you said - but when will you stop your pursuit of "buzz" and start faithfully preaching and discipling men and women?
In Christ,
Bill
Bill,
Now you're just wasting everybody's time :)
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But I think you've crossed into judgmentalism. I only read the first part of your comment, but I was thinking to myself. "I've never even met this guy."
I've been blogging long enough to know the difference a good-spirited dialogue on a tough topic and someone trying to hijack a comment stream.
No hard feelings. Just seems like a waste of your time and mine at this point :)
Mark
kcbill... sorry to jump in on this so late, but just a thought that occurred to me as i read the comments.
You said, "There is no submission Mark, and I am not the judge"... So why have you continued to judge?
Can I point you to Pauls words in 1 Corinthians 9:22...
"To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."
To those who are seeking, we become relevant. God's love compels us.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Mark,
So what does it mean to be a friend of the world?
Doctrineman,
What does it mean to be a friend of sinners?
We live with the tension of being "in" the world not "of" it.
Mark
Was Jesus truly a "friend" of sinners or was that what he was accused of by those who hated him? I would argue it's impossible for a believer and an unbeliever to be true friends.
2Co 6:14 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Does this dismiss our call to love? No. Does this mean we avoid all contact with "sinners". Absolutely no. If that is what you have in mind in this post then I am in your corner. However I wonder if you are open to some other possibilities on why the church is so ineffective, according to the stats you provided. Anyway I enjoy your blog, you are very thought provoking and appreciate the format. I'll return to reading mode now.
Doctrineman,
Please take this the right way. And I appreciate you reading the blog.
But your question makes we wonder, "Who was the last unchurched person that you befriended and led to faith in Christ?"
Last night I had a long conversation with a neighbor about church and Christ, etc. And I think he's going to come to church in a couple weeks. I'm hoping he comes and responds to the message or I hope I have an opportunity to lead him to faith personally.
But it started with me just being a friend and neighbor to him.
In fact, part of me wonders if I had been more of a friend and more of a neighbor if I'd have had this conversation years ago :) I felt a little conviction last night :)
I think we can get lost in the theological weeds if we aren't careful.
Mark
emmsy,
To infer that Paul might proclaim a repentance-less gospel because of that text is ludicrous. That is what is happening emmsy - they do not call a person to repent, and if they do they are not clear exactly what they are repenting from or even what repentance is. It's almost as if it is something they can deal with later. Hideous is a word that comes to mind emmsy - to think that people will overlook such a clear indication of a bogus minister of the gospel.
But don't let my words convince you emmsy - let the word of God be you guide:
Galatians 1:8: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Just so you getthe whole text and don't think it out of context, here is the thought in its entirety (vs.'s 6-8):
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Let him be accursed emmsy - a pretty harsh declaration from the one who penned the scripture you used to justify worldly methods.
I know it just methods and the message is still the same, right?
That is a delusion emmsy - the message has changed when people have no fear of the Lord in their conversion experience there is no beginning of wisdom or knowledge. Paul said "knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" and also said "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" - those passages do not reconcile with the creativity obsessed crowd who is all about creating a "buzz". Sorry Mark - but that is just an honest reality check - dude.
Mark,
About that neighbor, what if he doesn't make it to church in a few weeks, what if he passes away before then or by some change of heart reconsiders? Why would you waste an opportunity to witnes to him then and there? That is the foolishness of the whole mindset "seeker" churches have about evangelism - that it must happen in the church and that we just need to get people to come to church and if we can do that - everything will be great and God will bless us. Every believer Mark has the ministry of reconciliation and is called to be an ambassador for Christ - training oneself up in the way to witness to the lost should be a desire of those who understand the gospel and have truly been saved. Why wait until you've befriended a person before you share the Law and Grace gospel message with them the way Jesus did with the rich young ruler and the woman at the well? What a shame that a pastor feels he must wait a few weeks for the hope that his neighbor will darken the church doorstep before he shares with him the truth that unless he repents and believes the gospel he too will perish. Jesus' words in Mark 1:15 - not mine.
And your thought on getting caught in theological weeds - if that is how you think, maybe you should stop thinking so much and become a better communicator of the gospel message. It doesn't take years to learn - only a desire and a few short hours with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.
www.wayofthemaster.com
www.livingwaters.com
In Christ,
Bill
Bill,
Your comments are literally dripping with un Christlike judgmentalism. But I'm leaving them posted because they prove the point I'm trying to make. The enemy is us.
Maybe you ought to be sharing your faith with your neighbor instead of criticizing a brother.
Just saying it like it is :)
As to the waiting two weeks...
I think John 16:12 is a great guideline when it comes to sharing our faith. Jesus said, "I have so much to say to you, more than you can now bear." That's the NIV version :) In other words, evangelism requires a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit in sharing the right things at the right time.
Mark
Pastor Mark,
Good job on keeping your cool with Bill (not that I had any doubt).
Definitely don't ever stop being relevant. Were it not for a church being relevant 10 years ago with their worship style, I may not be a Christian today. If they played nothing but 100 yr old songs on pipe organs (not that there is anything wrong with that and I've also come to appreciate the old hymns) I'm not sure if I would have stuck around long enough to mature in my new found faith.
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