Tithing Experiment
This past weekend I talked about the investing dimension of discipleship and I challenged NCCers to do a tithing experiment for 3-6 months. Overwhelmed by the response! There were 87 tithing commitments. So excited to see the way God is going to move as NCCers take a financial step of faith.
I used to hate talking about money. But I really enjoy it now because it's not just good theory or good theology. I'm preaching out of experience. Lora and I have experienced our core value: you cannot out give God. And I genuinely want people to experience the joy and the blessing that is only possible on the giving side of life.
I think pastors are called to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. This was definitely an "afflict the comfortable" weekend. I was pretty straight-up. I wanted to remind us that one day we'll stand before the Judgment Seat of Chirst. And in the words of Matthew Henry: "It should be the business of every day to prepare for our final day."
We are called to make financial sacrifices and personal sacrifices for the sake of Christ. And when we live beyond our ability it invites God into the equation of our lives. In fact, human sacrifices set the stage for supernatural miracles! At the end of the day: we'll never regret one penny of money; one ounce of energy; or one second of time invested in the kingdom.
I have a conviction that no one has ever sacrificed anything for God. Sure, we make temporal sacrifices. But if you get back more than you gave up have you really sacrificed anything at all?
Nada!
I used to hate talking about money. But I really enjoy it now because it's not just good theory or good theology. I'm preaching out of experience. Lora and I have experienced our core value: you cannot out give God. And I genuinely want people to experience the joy and the blessing that is only possible on the giving side of life.
I think pastors are called to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. This was definitely an "afflict the comfortable" weekend. I was pretty straight-up. I wanted to remind us that one day we'll stand before the Judgment Seat of Chirst. And in the words of Matthew Henry: "It should be the business of every day to prepare for our final day."
We are called to make financial sacrifices and personal sacrifices for the sake of Christ. And when we live beyond our ability it invites God into the equation of our lives. In fact, human sacrifices set the stage for supernatural miracles! At the end of the day: we'll never regret one penny of money; one ounce of energy; or one second of time invested in the kingdom.
I have a conviction that no one has ever sacrificed anything for God. Sure, we make temporal sacrifices. But if you get back more than you gave up have you really sacrificed anything at all?
Nada!
36 Comments:
Thanks Mark. This last paragraph really got me. It is very timely for me and my family!
Not sure what coffee ya'll serve at Eb's...but you need to check out
www.uglymugcoffee.com
these guys are seminary grads and have both logged time in vocational ministry and cook some AWESOME coffee
Well-said, Mark. I'm not a minister, in the vocational sense, but as a church-goer, I look forward to my Pastor's messages related our calling to bless Him through the tithe and offering, to bless others, and be blessed in return.
I call it the "Law of Supply and Command." To whom much is given, much is expected. If you want much to be given (to you), prepare to meet His expectations before in faith, and especially after in obedience.
Tithing is against all New Testament principles. It's time to read-up on it. I wrote many articles about it, and there are plenty of theology books out against it now, too. Here's an example:
"A history of the tithe"
http://www.freegoodnews.com/2007/01/a_history_of_th.html
Free download of a book showing why tithing is not for Christians today:
http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/
...Bernie
FreeGoodNews.com
Mr. Anonymous (...Bernie)
Tithing is the only topic in the Bible that God says, "Test me in this." Maybe it's time you give it a shot.
Thanks for the reminder to be abandoned to God in my finances as well as the rest of me... money is so hard, I find it so hard as a student to give generously, but I know in many ways it only gets harder? Thanks for the challenge!
Wow Bernie,
Don't want to pile-on, but the writer of Hebrews (a New Testament book, last time I checked) had a quite a bit to say about tithing as a Jesus principle (Hebrews 7)
Everything we have is his, and we should be willing to give 100% back to God with a cheerful heart. 10% is a great starting point. I want to encourage those who are about to test God in this, that this is a great step of faith.
We get the blessing of God, and get to keep 90%? What a deal!
Thanks for the post. My preacher asked me to fill in for him in two weeks. I just got the subject matter of the sermon.
Thanks for standing true to God's word.
You really cannot out give God!
Chris Reeder
http://StupidProgrammer.com
Mark--
You don't know me. I've been reading your blog for about a week now. Just recently started blogging myself.
I'm six months in serving as pastor of a small congregation in Coastal Georgia. I was previously pastor to families with youth at a very large church in Nashville for a few years. My emerging sensibilities had me looking for somewhere God can more effectively use me ... so here I am.
Your statement "I think pastors are called to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable" resonates greatly with me now. I've discovered that I'm here to transition the culture of a comfortable church and get us focused on the many not-yet believers in our area. Every Sunday I seem to be afflicting the comfortable ... guess that's why Jeremiah consistently endears himself to me.
We're about to launch some risky things that can only be God-initiated. It's because of God's love for the world that we must consistenly be uncomfortable.
Praying for you and those you serve with.
Shalom--
Give us the cliff notes - what was the experiment/challenge?
Bernie is right. Nowhere in the New Testament does it model giving 10%. The only giving percentages shown in the NT are either 50% or 100%! So I suppose that is what you are promoting, right Bernie?
We just did a 2 month tithing challenge money back guarantee. If you don't believe your life is any different because of tithing we will refund your money, no questions asked. They of course must pay with a check or envelope for the records.
www.myC3church.com
Tithing is an obedience issue, offerings are a generosity issue.
We have been tithing for 1 year and 1 month at our church The Life Centre (Ottawa Canada) There are no words to describe the blessings we have recieved even on the weeks when we could not afford groceries. As the rest of our lives become as obedient to God's ways as we are in tithing I can just imagine how God is going to be able to use our lives for His purposes! The thought of not tithing is very scary for me now and I am thankful that I am at a piont where I realize that God really is God and His ways are real whether we choose them or not.
Anyways, e-talk again soon.
Peace and blessings I pray to you all down there in the US.
Donna Davidson
Wow. What a statement…
“comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable”
I’d say that is not only a challenge to pastors but to the church. We lay persons (speaking on my own behalf, thank you..haha), as part of the Body, should not just look to our pastors to carry the weight but also be encouraged to step into the ring and comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Sometimes that afflicting of the comfortable might mean realizing we need to afflict ourselves by self-examination and true honest reflection… becoming less of a consumer. I'm trying that myself.
Thanks to Bernie for chiming in on tithing as well. Arguments can be made in many directions and it does no one good to debate it. Those who have experienced it know it is truth and truth always shines through. I know tithing to be biblically true but for the sake of discussion, say it weren’t and it was just a man made attempt by power hungry, cash craving people to manipulate and control… then what? I think anything that takes our focus off of “things” and detaches our self-worth from monetary means is noble and worthy of practicing.
As a youngster I used to listen to Nine Inch Nails. A line from one of the songs always stuck with me… “god money I’ll do anything for you, god money just tell me what you want me to do.”
I don’t want to ever confuse my God with money.
Love Konan’s thought too about obedience versus generosity. God always comes through for us. We’ve been tithing for many years now, sometimes writing the weekly check when there was NO money in the bank but God somehow always provided and continues to do so. I hope to one day live off 10% and tithe 90% back to God. He’s worth it.
My gosh, you guys are really scary and ignorant of the Bible if you believe that Christians should tithe 10% of their money to the local church.
Who tithed? The Israelites. Why? To support the Levites and Priests who did not get a share of the land. What did they tithe? Crops and flocks- ONLY! Carpenters, bakers, masons, etc. did not tithe (The Bible defines who is to tithe). Carpenters, for example, gave freewill offerings. The poor did not tithe, but rather RECEIVED a portion of the tithe.
If you are poor, you should NOT tithe. Give a freewill offering if you want, like the widow's mite (Mark 12:42). If you are rich, you should give much more than 10% (parable of the talents, Matt. 25). For Christians, we should be practicing stewardship- don't confuse that with tithing, which is part of the law (just like sabbath keeping and circumcision). Don't go back under the Old Testament and the law, like the Apostle Paul told the foolish Galatians:
Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Christian tithe-teaching is legalism. Get the free book download I mentioned earlier, and you'll quickly see the false teaching that it is.
Here's an article I wrote that mentions some popular Evangelical Pastors who are teaching the truth on this subject (ministers like J. Vernon McGee and John MacArthur):
http://www.freegoodnews.com/2006/01/tithing_part_2.html
God bless you all as you experience the truth of financial stewardship- devoting all your time, treasure, and talent to God (not just 10% of your increase in income).
...Bernie
StephenElliot said...
"Tithing is the only topic in the Bible that God says, "Test me in this." Maybe it's time you give it a shot."
You are referring to the book of Malachi, in the Old Testament. Basic exegesis must consider the time, place, and culture when interpreting a book of the Bible. That was written to people under the Levitical Priesthood. The Book of Hebrews (New Testament) explains that the Levitical Priesthood has been replaced by another order. Now, all believers are in the Priesthood. To learn more about how the book of Hebrews demolished the idea of "Christian tithing," read "point 14" of this:
http://shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/
...Bernie
(By the way, read my comments while you can, because I'm pretty sure they will be deleted. There is no Biblical defense for "Christian tithing." Look at and study any Bible passage the Pastor uses to justify it (like a good Berean, Acts 17:11), and you will come to know the truth yourself. The link I give above is rich in Scripture to point out ALL the errors in "Christian Tithe" teaching.
...Bernie
Dir., FreeGoodNews.com
Bernie is right. Read the the book of Galatians and you will know why.Those days the circumcission(OT Ordinance) group were confusing the believers.Now it´s the tithing Group confusing belivers.Mixing Law and Grace is dangerous to your spiritual health.Practicing an old covenant ordinance or law negates the finished work of Christ at Calvary!
OT Covenant is obsolete!
Heb 8:13
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
NIV
Did you tithe your way to salvation?
Gal 4:8-11
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God-or rather are known by God-how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
NIV
Choose your own measure in giving.JESUS said in
Luke 6:38
38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
NIV
All must based on the condtions in
2 Cor 9:6-8
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
NIV
FAITH is the key to unlock God´s blessings, not our works!Give in faith out of love.
God bless you
Douglas
http://www.douglasnimohministries.org/
Quoting Bernie-
"If you are poor, you should NOT tithe. Give a freewill offering if you want, like the widow's mite (Mark 12:42). If you are rich, you should give much more than 10% (parable of the talents, Matt. 25"
Bernie --- I don't know if you recognize the problem with putting your argument this way. Americans all *think* they are poor ---- because they have lived large and gotten into tons of debt they are actually *cash poor* ---- but that means that most American Christians are off the hook for giving anything ---- which is a crock.
Poor vs. Rich is 100% PERCEPTION ... and we all know perception is reality. There's the out.
I think everyone needs a new reality. None of us are poor. I for one have been blessed by giving and giving generously and have received far more than I have given in the end. I'll stick with it and let everybody else argue out whether or not tithing is biblical.
From one of the world poorest countries,
trl
Troy and Tara says:
"Bernie --- I don't know if you recognize the problem with putting your argument this way. Americans all *think* they are poor ---- because they have lived large and gotten into tons of debt they are actually *cash poor* ---- but that means that most American Christians are off the hook for giving anything ---- which is a crock."
I agree. But also, there are people who can't pay their utility bills or medical costs or buy food, but they feel guilty if not tithing. That guilt is not of God or Biblical!
I agree, the vast majority of Christians could easily give 10% to God. But it is selfish for the Pastor to demand the first 10% cut, then say all other giving is icing-on-the-cake and optional. That is not stewardship teaching, per the talents parable of Matt. 25.
...Bernie
Would it help if I prove that Jesus didn't tithe?
Lev 19:9 'Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.
Lev 19:10 'Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.
The gleaning incident is recorded three times (Mat 12:1-12, Mark 2:23-24, and Luke 6:1-2
The Pharisees never got on to them for gleaning the crops as the poor were allowed to do under the law, also they never made him tithe of the gleanings he was getting either. They were trying to nail him for doing it on the Sabbath. Only the poor and strangers(travelers) were allowed to glean. Jesus never tithed. He was poor so that allowed the gleaning incident. Otherwise He was a thief. We know better than to say he was thieving. Even the Pharisees didn't accuse him of that when they confronted Him. Also, craftsmen didn't tithe, only farmers and herdsmen.
Jerry
I was going to post on the newest "tithe" blog entry, but i see there is no access-- it is blocked.
tithing was to support the Levitical priesthood since that was their portion of inheritance. Inasmuch, they could not own land, etc, but were to serve in the temple.
In the New Covenant, the priesthood of the believer takes the place of the Levitical priesthood, since now, by Christ we have direct access to the father.
Tithe-teaching pastors are actually denying this basic covenantial truth.
sheesh, Mark, bet you didn't expect this thread to be taken over, did you? :) wow.
Mark -
Your homework thrills, encoruages, challenges and helps the church.
Yes,
"test the Lord on this"
"the workman is worthy of his hire"
"each sold their property and gave when there was need"
"reap what you sow"
"give to God what is God's and to Ceaser what is his"
"the widow's mite"
The list goes on, and MAN, the testimonies of people who give and how God has blessed are endless. NO ONE can discount the testimony since it is owned personally.
I love 2 Corinthians 8:5 that talks about people who give. Gentleman, we MUST be known as the people who go BEYOND (see the verse above) and RISK our lives, even chase lions, for Jesus (Acts 15:26). No, those aren't tithing verses, but being a disciple impacts every area of life. If it doesn't touch your wallet and bank account, you must be SOMEBODY else's disciple.
Michael (James 1:5)
QUOTE
If it doesn't touch your wallet and bank account, you must be SOMEBODY else's disciple.
UNQUOTE
Not tithing doesn't equate to not giving. I know several non-tithers who give very generously, way aboe the tithe. You say the testimonies of tither are unreal. I know tesimonies of non-tithers that are equally unreal. If poor people are the biggest sector of people that tithe and God besses the tithe why aren't they now the richest sector? It's been proven. Tithe teachers, in a disection of Biblical Scripture, can't debate with non-tithe teachers and hold up to their teaching.
When reading Pastor Mike’s position on tithing one thing stood out to me. His position is based on “what he believed to be true” not on Biblical evidence. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but -- and this is crucial to understand -- no one has a right to have his opinion respected or taken seriously. An opinion EARNS respect when it has been shown by supporting evidence to be WORTHY of respect -- not necessarily proven conclusively, but at least supported as valid. If I cannot, or will not, support my opinion with evidence, others have the perfect right to refute, dismiss, and yes, even ridicule that opinion. . And I have no logical or ethical basis for becoming indignant and offended when someone rejects or dismisses an opinion of mine that has no evidence to support it. This is the nature of debate; this is the process of arriving, if we can, at the truth.
Bernie of Free Good News has met the obligation to posit his position by building it with evidence taken from Scripture, while Pastor Mike has built his theological Universal principle of the law of tithing on unsubstancuated assumptions, not direct evidence. Where is the mandate given by God to the church? Not Israel but the Church.
The problem of credibility arises. Any person who would not accept the truth of presented evidence is unreasonable and untrustworthy, and has damaged his credibility to such an extent that any arguments he makes in relation to these topics should be highly suspect. And -- any person who makes a claim that is contradicted by biblical facts, and who refuses to accept correction concerning such basic truths, proves himself to be untrustworthy. It is always dangerous to build a principal on subjective feelings.
Blessings Larry
QUOTE
I wanted to remind us that one day we'll stand before the Judgment Seat of Chirst.
UNQUOTE
As will people that teach untrue doctrine to Christians.
Sort of chuckle at anonymous posts that are so bold :)
Honestly? I think I've clearly and simply stated my theological case for the tithe in my last post. I'm a little surprised at the passionate anti-tithe sentiment. Wish everytone was that passionate about giving!
Feel free to keep posting, but it seems like its degenerated from a dialogue to a diatribe :)
My two cents. Literally :)
Mark
Mark said:
"Sort of chuckle at anonymous posts that are so bold :) Honestly? I think I've clearly and simply stated my theological case for the tithe in my last post. "
Mark- are you referring to your last post called "A Theology of Tithing," that isn't open to comments?
Seriously, there is not one New Testament text that can be used in support of "Christian tithing." If you think so, please check it against this author's webpage where he publically refutes all of them:
http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/
He has a book at Amazon.com that sells for about $20, or you can download it for free at his website. This book was his seminary Ph.D. dissertation.
My claim is that "Christian Tithing" is very dangerous. Not only because it is unBiblical, but also very damaging... and against the principles of true stewardship (devoting all to God). This is evidenced by Ben Rainey's comment:
"We get the blessing of God, and get to keep 90%? What a deal!"
No- if you are a steward, it all (100%) belongs to God. Really, it is not so much what you give to God, but what do you keep for yourself. Your tithing theology promotes selfish living, by keeping 90% for selfish reasons, and also puts an ungodly guilt-burden on the poor who can't tithe. Why don't you teach how the Tithe in the Old Testament cared for the poor, rather than robbed them of their money?
There's a temptation for preachers to preach the tithe for funding reasons. It's a great possible source for money. However, please search the Scripture for the truth, and seek for true exegesis (Bible interpretation). Avoid eisegesis (representing a Bible verse as teaching something you want it to say, rather than what it really means).
...Bernie
Dir., FreeGoodNews.com
PS: What seminary did you go to, and what class did they teach you about tithing? I am finishing up my Masters in Ministry at Luther Rice Seminary, and it wasn't taught in any class,,, maybe barely mentioned in one textbook. "Christian Tithing" is not in any of the "Systematic Theology" classes or textbooks, so it can't be very important in theology.
With your logic about the law still being in effect, then I guess you also require circumcision for all new believers. It was a much bigger deal than tithing in the Old Testament. Or do you choose and pick which laws to keep, and keep tithing because it is a great funding potential for your church?
Mark, You need to call for back up! By that I mean back up your position with Scripture or your position holds no weight with God nor should His people listen to unfounded opinion. Honesty is called for here. Would you teach your congregation that they must keep the Sabbath holy?
If indeed you are concerned for blessings to fall on your congregation you should teach that because according to Levticus 26:2-12 the same blessing is promised for keeping the Sabbath holy: "Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my Sanctuary" Then it list all the same blessings found in Malachi 3:8-11.
Your congregation can be blessed with the same exact blessing without giving a dime!Or is that the real problem?
Blessings Larry
Mark, You said in your Theology of tithing: "I honestly believe the tithe is a universal and eternal principle. It's not just an "old testament"
For your back up Scriptures please don't appeal to your "universal and eternal priciple" supposition.
I can build a "universal and eternal principle" looking to "Burnt offerings, Sabbath and circumcission" which were all pre-law practices.
I'm not trying to be hard here just real and consistant.
Shall we also practice them just because they are Biblical and outside of the Mosaic Law.
Where does it end?
Blessings Larry
"Honestly? I think I've clearly and simply stated my theological case for the tithe in my last post."
"Honestly? I think I've clearly and simply stated my theological case for the tithe in my last post."
Mark, you haven't made any theological case. To make a thoelogical case you have to supply Scripture. You have stated your "thoughts" with several "I believe", "I think" and "I suppose"
Not the first actual study of Scripture in context. I have yet to meat even one tithe teacher that stand up to a Scripture by Scripture study of the subject. Not one. Ramsey, Alcorn and all the major tithe teachers have been rebutted and come away looking pretty bad. I encourage you to do an indepth study of tithing and giving and you too will see the errors of your teaching. Although, if you are confident in your teaching already, I'm sure Russell Kelly would be more than glad to give you a try. He's that good.
Jerry
Pastor Mark,
You said:
“I just don't think living under grace ought to make us less generous than living under law. . . . I suppose we could argue about the tithe until Jesus returns. . . . .
I think it'd be more beneficial to the kingdom if we just give generously until Jesus returns.”
You might agree then that we have only two choices concerning the issue of tithing:
1 – Take the time necessary to completely understand both perspectives.
2 – Admit that the issue is a disputable matter that must be held between oneself and God and not mentioned either pro or con because of its inherently divisive tendency.
Just in Jesus,
Steve
A couple thoughts from a theological, practical, and logical perspective...
From a theological standpoint, you can't ignore the fact that Jesus validates the tithe. It's a simple exegetical principle. You let clear passages help you interpret unclear passages. Jesus is point blank.
From a practical standpoint, I'll never regret tithing. Much of the blessing I've experienced in my life is the byproduct of tithing. I love investing in the kingdom. I stand on the promise of Malachi 3:16. And I'll tithe till the day I die.
I just wish that some of the commenters were as passionate about investing in the kingdom as they are about trying to do a theological end run around the tithe.
From a logical perspective, I think those who teach against the tithe run a significant risk.
What if I am wrong?
I obviously don't want to teach something that is false, but I'd still encouragement people to give 10% or more.
What if those who teach against the tithe are wrong?
If Malachi 3:16 is inspired and applicable to New Testament Christians, then those who argue against the tithe are encouraging people to rob from God. That is a pretty risky scenario.
I just think you really need to come to terms with that if you teach against the tithe.
Mark
One and all,
Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm shutting down this comment stream.
I didn't delete any comments.
And it seems like everybody had plenty of air time.
I just think we'd keep dancing around and around if I keep it open. And I just don't have time to monitor it :)
Hope everyone understands.
Thanks,
Mark
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