Just got the following text message from my friend, Ben Arment. Had to pass it along. Definitely made my day! And it makes me marvel at the world we live in. The world keeps getting smaller and smaller. It's no longer six degrees of separation. It's more like two or three!
Here's the text message:
I'm sitting in a Reston Starbucks eavesdropping on an unchurched woman describing her experience at National Community Church on Saturday. She's used the word "awesome" over and over. Praise God.
That'll keep you going another week!
I love it when church people love NCC, but not half as much as when unchurched people love NCC. Am I allowed to say that?
Here's the text message:
I'm sitting in a Reston Starbucks eavesdropping on an unchurched woman describing her experience at National Community Church on Saturday. She's used the word "awesome" over and over. Praise God.
That'll keep you going another week!
I love it when church people love NCC, but not half as much as when unchurched people love NCC. Am I allowed to say that?
19 Comments:
Makes me happy!!
Awesome!
Mark--if you divide infinite love in half, it's still infinite--your love for the churched and unchurched, at NCC and everywhere else, really shows!
That is SO cool! "super-cool" as the French would say :)
Did she repent of her sins?
Who cares if she thought the "experience" was awesome? Because she heard a band that sounds just like the world?
“The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them…providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church…the need is for Biblical doctrine, so understood and felt that it sets men aflame.” CH Spurgeon
J & J,
Not sure where that came from.
We've tried to create a church where unchurched people can explore the claims of Christ in a non-threatening and non-judgmental environment. We let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.
I'm afraid that sometimes we don't let the Holy Spirit do what He does best because we try to do the convicting and end us scaring people off to fast. Almost like trying to set a hook too fast in fishing.
I hope and pray that every person who walks through our doors comes to a point of repentance, but the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. One small step will eventually lead to one giant leap.
We also believe that the most important decisions ought to be the most informed decisions. That doesn't negate that "today is the day of salvation." But we have to trust God's timing.
One more thought. Jesus' parables were incredibly entertaining--unlike the Rabbi's of his day. But it wasn't entertainment for entertainment sake. You have to demand attention (see Luke 14:23--the word compel means to demand attention) before you can get them to listen to you.
Sounds like we have the same goal--repentance. But different tactics.
My two cents,
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for your response. You seem to have a great zeal for Christ.
The thing is, the Gospel message is offensive to the unregenerate.
We all have hearts of stone that cannot respond to stimuli. The only way we can respond is if God takes out that heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh(ezekiel 36:24-28).
You can make church as non-offensive as you want but at some point the hard words of Jesus must come out.
Jesus said, "Count the cost. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me."
When the rich young ruler asked Jesus, "how can I go to heaven", Jesus didn't keep it non-offensive...Jesus said, "sell everything". The rich young ruler walked away.
Do me a huge favor...some time, take 1 hour and listen to my all time favorite teaching. Drop me a line and let me know what you think.
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/04/paul-washer_06.html
From reading your blog briefly I get the impression that you believe in the silly american Christianity that you can simply "pray" Jesus into your heart. Am I right?
Please listen to that message. Let me know what you think.
You seem to have a wondeful opportunity to serve Him...don't waste time with making your church look like you serve a six flags over Jesus using entertainment that looks like the world.
“Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” – James 4:4
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." - 1st John 2:15-16
Blessings Brother. Drop me a line.
JJBibleministry@aol.com
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/04/paul-washer_06.html
J & J,
No doubt the message is offensive to some, but read the gospels and it is very appealing to others. Jesus offended Pharisees, but not prostitutes or tax collectors or fishermen or farmers. They found Jesus very appealing.
One question.
Do you think a church can be culturally relevant and bibically sound?
Mark
Mark,
I am enjoying the dialogue with you.
The unadulterated Gospel preached would probably split your church.
Those that Christ "did not offend" were regenerate people.
The Church simply cannot adapt to the culture and remain true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ because they are in complete opposition.
It is precisely because of the Church's rush to "relevance" that it is in its current state of deterioration.
We would do better to repent and adapt to The Word of God instead.
We are watering down the Gospel so much that even the elect can't reject it.
Please listen to that sermon. I'm actually listening to it right now as I write to you.
It is awesome.
Blessings.
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/04/paul-washer_06.html
First one on that link - Regeneration and Self Denial
J & J,
I think truth is found in the tension of opposites--Job 11:6. True wisdom has two sides. Jesus was offensive and appealing. Both/and. We should follow suit.
One important note. There is a world of difference between "adapting" to the culture and incarnating the gospel. In my experience, those who are "against" relevance don't take the incarnation seriously.
Mark
Mark,
I like you. Good dialogue.
2 questions for you.
1. What are you saved from?
2. Can you pray Jesus into your heart and He will definitely come in? If so, please show me in Scripture.
J & J,
1) Saved from sin and eternal separation from our Creator--a loss so infinite it's tough to fathom.
2) We don't typically use that langauge at NCC. Jesus said, "Follow me." We encourage people to accept that invitation and everything it means--including taking up your cross daily. I think there is a moment where we "cross the line of faith" and accept Jesus for who he is and what he did. But that is the beginning of our spiritual journey.
Mark
Mark,
I just want to give you something to think about, then off the bed for me.
You were saved from sin? Was sin after you? Was sin going to throw you in hell? Sin is not even a person.
You were saved from God.
I have a saying...
God saved us from Himself. God saved us for Himself. God saved us by Himself.
I think we've lost the doctrine of total depravity. God sees no worth in us. There is nothing you or I could ever do to motivate God to do except throw us in the deepest part of hell.
God saved you for His own name and for His own Glory and a demonstration of His power. But He has also saved because He is love. He saves because He is love.
Ezekiel 36:22-27 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
I will put my Spirit in you and cause(MAKE) you walk in my statutes.
It amazes me that in the year 2007 we expect God to save us but then He can't make us do anything.
If you read the above He is quite clear.
He doesn't say, "I will save you and I hope you will cooperate in your sanctification".
Our God is so powerful. I believe in that power. If we believe in His power, we don't have to be relevant. We can preach the Word and trust in His power.
God does it all.
Good night, brother.
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/04/feeding-sheep-or-amusing-goats.html
Now, off to bed. LOL :)
J & J,
"God sees no worth in us."
That is where we have to agree to disagree. God didn't send His son to die for us because we're worthless. He did it because every soul has infinite worth despite our sin.
We have a core value at NCC: everyone is invaluable and irreplaceable. That motivates the way we treat people. Who would be attracted to a God or a church that views them as worthless? I think it's the exact opposite.
I think our theology differs in this respect. It seems like you view people fundamentally as "sinners." And you focus on total depravity. I don't ignore the sin. I see the sin. But I also know that we were created in the image of God. And that is what gives us value.
Mark
Wow. You'd better read through Romans a few more times.
"There is no one who does good. No not one."
"There is no one who seeks God."
"Every thought of man is evil."
Mark,
There is no way around it. God saved us for His own reputation and for His own Glory and because He is love.
Did you read Ezekiel...look at God's own Words...'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is NOT for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, BUT FOR MY HOLY NAME, which you have profaned among the nations
Sounds like you worship a politically correct God.
God is not politically correct.
He loves people but he also hates them.
Jacob I love, Esau I HATE.
God kills babies every single day.
Doesn't sound like we worship the same God. God is not politically correct.
Until you understand your sinfulness, you will never understand His love and mercy that He would save even one of us.
What you are teaching you will not find in history until about 1900. We have 2000 years of Christian history and you will not find what you are saying until about 80 years ago.
Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil CONTINUALLY." This depravity begins at conception. It does not begin when we do something bad. We are not sinners because we sin, rather, we sin because we are sinners. Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Depravity of the heart is completely extensive so that the creature (us), cannot will to do any good. All we do is evil. All we love is ourselves. We suppress God, and exalt ourselves.
1. Fallen man cannot do or work any good:
Matthew 7:17-18, "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
1 Cor. 12:3, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
John 15:4-5, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
Romans 8:7-8, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
2. Fallen man cannot comprehend or apprehend the good:
Acts 16:14, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."
Ephesians 4:18, "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:"
2 Cor. 3:12-18, "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
John 1:11, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."
John 8:43, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."
Matthew 13:14, "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:"
1 Cor. 1:18, 21, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
1 Cor. 2:14; "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
3. Man cannot have any desire towards the good:
Matthew 7:18, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 8:43, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."
John 15:5, "...for without me ye can do nothing."
John 6:64-65, "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
Ezek. 11:19, "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"
Ephesians 2:1,5, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"
So, after reading that Scripture, tell me Mark, what could you or I do to ever motivate Him to save us?
Please do not give me your opinion but Scripture.
Thanks and have a blessed day.
Mark,
Well brother, I am going let you go. I have much to do. I pray for you. Just by you thinking you have "value". That's what you think. That's what you want to think. But once sin entered the world through the bite of a fruit, it was over from that point on.
Just read the Bible. Don't read what you want it to read. Read what it says and believe it.
I have given you overwhelming evidence.
I would encourage you to start back with the Apostle Paul and show me where we have value. Go through history, through the puritans, through the reformers...you won't find any such thing that we have "value" after the fall of man.
It's sad you have fallen into this easy believism here in America. It's hard if that's all you know.
But history and the Bible back me up.
It's worth taking a more careful look. Even though it may be painful to admit sometimes our critics have our best interests in mind. More importantly, they have Jesus Christ and the purity of His Church and the proclamation of His gospel to the lost as their goal in their criticisms.
It was nice dialoguing with you. If you decide to want to furthur dialogue, you know where to find me on my blog or email.
Blessings Mark :)
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